tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post8313557138749417525..comments2024-01-29T06:21:26.042-05:00Comments on Nikos: The Homosexuality DebateRobert McDowellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02932047276335921100noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-74466712775346813852010-09-16T17:05:18.151-04:002010-09-16T17:05:18.151-04:00Katie - Thanks for your insightful comments relate...Katie - Thanks for your insightful comments related to the marriage metaphor. <br /><br />It's unfortunate that our modern worldview clouds what Paul is saying in the I Timothy 2 passage. When verse 11 uses the word, "submission" does that mean submission to men? Or does it mean submission to God? If the latter is the correct interpretation, then this changes how the crucial verse 12 is read. <br /><br />In Ephesus, the people worshipped a female deity and the priests were women and ruled over the men. The men were subject to the women in that religion. Taken in this way, verse 12 is Paul's way of saying that the new religion of Christianity is not like their female dominated religion. So, actually, Paul is advocating for equality and unity, quite the opposite of how a lot of people interpret this text. And the reason for the Eve being deceived reference is to point out that like men, women need to study and submit to God as well. The point is that both men and women need to study and submit to God.<br /><br />When the bible uses the heaven/earth metaphor, it's not doing so in a dualistic way - ie. heaven is good and earth is bad. They are complimentary to one another. Heaven and earth overlap at certain points often in mysterious ways through God's grace and will one day be united in complete union.Robert McDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932047276335921100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-3941798059564484542010-09-16T15:34:20.365-04:002010-09-16T15:34:20.365-04:00and yet to use that metaphor of heaven and earth u...and yet to use that metaphor of heaven and earth uniting in the marriage between man and woman, begs the question about which partner is the heaven and which is the earth... especially in the context of earth being full of evil/pain/sin/brokenness. <br /><br />The metaphor itself seems to subjugate one to the other and claims that only in marriage is one made whole (an argument made 1 Timothy 2:13-14). <br /><br />I understand it was a relevant metaphor for its time, but as we have witnessed the liberation of women from patriarchal systems, even this metaphor might need to be liberated. If marriage today, in the Western world, is a union between equals... it doesn't appear to be a good parallel to the new creation.Katie Z.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01143363139786424632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-71474206065089250082010-08-23T18:34:50.232-04:002010-08-23T18:34:50.232-04:00John - I hear what your saying. Regarding the pai...John - I hear what your saying. Regarding the pain experienced by people who feel alienated from society and the church, regardless of our position on the practice of homosexuality, we are called to love all people in the name of Christ.<br /><br />At the same time, my understanding of the marriage metaphor from a biblical perspective is that the biblical writers take seriously the evil/pain/sin/brokennes of the world and the long awaited hope for that final uniting of heaven and earth. To ignore that metaphor would be to dismiss a huge amount of biblical material (not just selected verses here and there but interwoven again and again) that undergirds this long awaited hope.<br /><br />Even with this understanding of the scriptures, I certainly want to commend you for not letting me forget the inclusiveness of God's love for all people. <br /> <br />Unfortunately, this vital point gets lost in the debate again and again.Robert McDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932047276335921100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-39846736651164512462010-08-23T17:12:53.543-04:002010-08-23T17:12:53.543-04:00But Robert, if this is only about finding profound...But Robert, if this is only about finding profound ways to talk about "heaven and earth" coming together - a certain unity of the finite and infinite - given the real, not metaphorical pain created for members of the GBLTQ community - our sons, daughters, friends, colleagues and mentors, maybe we need alternative and less destructive metaphors. For example, I can easily see celebration of the fact of a wide variety in sexual orientation and constitution affirming God's love for the multi-faith diversity in our world. <br /><br />Procreation certainly needs certain plumbing, but creativity emerges from commitment.John Montgomeryhttp://www.notesfromthebalcony.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-56721669732298815472010-08-23T14:46:18.489-04:002010-08-23T14:46:18.489-04:00John - Sure, I'll try to clarify from my post ...John - Sure, I'll try to clarify from my post and offer a specific example. When reading Paul's stance on homosexuality in Romans, his context is from the creation story which is the Jewish understanding that marriage is male/female which is a complimentary relationship because of gender. The bible often uses this marriage metaphor (as understood this way) to describe that time in the future when heaven and earth (different while at the same time complimentary) will be reunited which is the Judeo/Christian hope of that time in the future when the world will finally be made whole.<br /><br />This isn't an issue about sin causing pain (as in the examples of sin you provided in your post) as much as it is about marriage being a theological affirmation of the future coming together of heaven and earth.Robert McDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932047276335921100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-22262909936104613072010-08-23T13:55:58.487-04:002010-08-23T13:55:58.487-04:00Robert,
With all due respect, I did not hear you ...Robert,<br /><br />With all due respect, I did not hear you answer the question why homosexual practice was sinful. I don't have trouble giving several reasons why adultrous behavior destroys a relationship and is problematic for everybody involved. It is pretty obvious that stealing injures society and not telling the truth in court should be condemned. Am I missing something?John Montgomeryhttp://www.notesfromthebalcony.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-72671742482532702172010-08-22T11:02:18.847-04:002010-08-22T11:02:18.847-04:00I am not a theologian but I have read the Bible on...I am not a theologian but I have read the Bible once or twice. It seems to me that at least once Jesus comments that how we treat "the least of these" is the same as doing it to him...Laurienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-3670918366223428652010-08-21T15:55:05.747-04:002010-08-21T15:55:05.747-04:00Hello Robert,
I appreciated reading your post her...Hello Robert,<br /><br />I appreciated reading your post here. I think you have provided a great perspective on taking what I like to call the "radical middle", which I believe is one of the strengths of our denomination.<br /><br />It helps immensely to be reminded about our mission of service to others in the name of Christ.<br /><br />Grace and Peace,<br /> Aaron KessonAaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12563127875127992069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-31575458270302489642010-08-21T13:41:10.388-04:002010-08-21T13:41:10.388-04:00John & Pat - Thanks for taking the time to thi...John & Pat - Thanks for taking the time to think through this issue with me.Robert McDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02932047276335921100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-82448000641848612302010-08-21T12:51:39.287-04:002010-08-21T12:51:39.287-04:00What a powerful and thoughtful post! Thanks!What a powerful and thoughtful post! Thanks!Patnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1371244606683666300.post-72079230944126097082010-08-21T11:29:31.266-04:002010-08-21T11:29:31.266-04:00Wonderful post.
I'm greatly troubled by the u...Wonderful post.<br /><br />I'm greatly troubled by the unChristian and political way this debate is being used - far outside of Western Ohio.<br /><br />Thank you for your witness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com